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Potential Client
Five reasons to turn down a potential client
I’ve been through my fair share of clients, well over a hundred
successful transactions in the past two years for that matter, and I’ve
come to know when a project is worth taking on or not. As a freelance
designer, I know that time was of utmost importance. Knowing when to
drop a potential project can mean hundreds (and in some cases,
thousands) of dollars, not to mention precious time. Now, I share my
knowledge with you! Here’s some situations I suggest I’ve been faced
with that I suggest you try to avoid:
* I don’t have any money, but this will get you some great exposure!
Heard this before, and 9 times out of 10, that’s complete and utter
bullshit. Unless you have some hard evidence that your client’s project
will, without a doubt, succeed, then don’t give in to this kind of ploy.
Client’s that tell you this are generally just looking for some free
design work and aren’t worth your time. However, there are certain times
when some back-links are worth your time. For example, let’s say that
your client owns a site that sells non-unique Wordpress themes. Your
client comes to you looking for a Wordpress design to add to their
inventory, but doesn’t have any cash on hand and offers a link to your
site in the footer of the theme. This could potentially be very
profitable for you, providing that people buy the theme and that the
people who buy it actually have some decent traffic. On the other hand,
this could prove to be pretty pointless; if the only people that use
your theme own blogs about gardening, chances are no one’s going to be
clicking the “designed by” link you so graciously accepted as payment
for the design. Use your brain in this situation and evaluate how much
exposure you’ll actually be getting.
* I’m not sure what I want, and I won’t pay if I don’t like it. I’m
sorry, but do I look like a Jedi to you?
I can’t read your mind, and neither can most normal people. Clients that
have no idea what they want are either really indecisive or haven’t put
all that much thought into their site. Chances are, they probably have
no idea if they’ll want to pay you either. Never work without some kind
of design brief, it should save you some misery.
* I have a few other designers in mind, can you create a few mock-ups
and maybe I’ll pick you? This can be one of a few things. The client
could possibly already have a designer picked out and needs some ideas
to hand over to him. What better way to get free ideas than to ask for
free mock-ups from a bunch of other designers? The client might be an
honest person and is just looking to find the best designer he can get
with his money. Either way, free mock-ups are generally a waste of time.
Put your foot down and tell the client that you’ll do free mock-ups — if
you’ve received a 50% down-payment.
* I’m not comfortable with a contract/up-front deposit, can we go
without it? Don’t bend for anyone. If you’re old enough to be legally
binded by a contract, do it. Protect your own ass as much as you can.
Take a 50% up front deposit so clients can’t simply run away with your
hard work. If a client ever suggests that you change your business
practices for them, deny them (in a professional way, of course) and
move on.
* I thought this was supposed to be coded? I’d like my money back. If
you’re like me, you love the Photoshop aspect of design and can’t stand
coding. I generally just create .PSDs and refer my clients to a good
coder to get their project finished up, or handle the outsourcing myself
and hand over the complete package. I’ve run into quite a few clients
though, that never mention a word about front-end coding until it comes
time for payment. As soon as the phrase “my PayPal address is ..” comes
up in conversation, the words “I thought this was going to be coded”
flies right back and slaps me in the face. So, after my first encounter
with this situation, I’ve kept logs of all my conversations so that when
someone tries to get free coding out of me, I can send them a large text
file and tell them so try to find the words “coding”, “HTML” or “CSS” in
it. Sidenote: After many comments regarding this point, I thought I
should add this. My clients know that I outsource my coding work, and I
make this very clear. This point refers to clients that try to get free
work out of you, which is quite common these days.
Once again, I hope this article can help some designers out! Thanks for
reading, and have a great Easter Monday!
102 Responses to “Five reasons to turn down a potential client”
1. Alex Says:
April 9th, 2007 at 2:47 am
Great article! Agree with everything you have said there. Shall bookmark
this for future reference.
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3. Five reasons to turn down a potential client Says:
April 9th, 2007 at 3:15 am
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4. Tom Howell Says:
April 9th, 2007 at 3:34 am
Great articles Tyler, however yes if you put a cloak on you would indeed
look like a Jedi. Other than that some great points to take in.
5. Peter Says:
April 9th, 2007 at 11:30 am
Completly irrelivant, but what is the font that you used to write “Me.”
and “Jedi.” on the image comparing you and the Jedi?
Thanks!
6. TylerL Says:
April 9th, 2007 at 12:14 pm
Peter, I believe I used the font Kalinga.
7. Sachman Bhatti Says:
April 9th, 2007 at 12:36 pm
I hear these all the time …. thanks for the reminder.
8. james Says:
April 9th, 2007 at 1:07 pm
If customers are like Jedi. Then, they wont be very numerous!!!
9. mattymatt Says:
April 9th, 2007 at 3:07 pm
Yes, in that picture you do kind of look like a Jedi.
My employer has attempted to use all of those excuses at one time or
another. It is mortifyingly embarrassing. I just want to hide every time
I hear a manager say, “they’ll want to work with us for free because
it’ll get their name out there” or “thanks for the proofs, but we’re
going to go with the vendor who’s five cents cheaper.”
10. Peter Says:
April 9th, 2007 at 3:45 pm
Thanks Tyler,
Also for providing a good article that I can read ;]
11. Bryan Le Says:
April 9th, 2007 at 8:19 pm
I’m sorry, but do I look like a Jedi to you?
That’s a classic.
12. matt Says:
April 9th, 2007 at 11:35 pm
Thanks, I’ll make sure to always keep these things in mind.
13. Pavel Says:
April 16th, 2007 at 12:16 am
I also would add a type of people, who claim themselves as “artist”,
trying to use you as a playground.
Let’s say what they want is pretty simple website. You negotiated a
price, amount of work, etc. You’ve completed a few mock-ups and he
formally accepted them. Then, when almost 95% of job is done, he starts
with his “great ideas”, which are simply non-compatible with the whole
design. You see it, he sees it, everybody sees how ugly it became after
his “fresh ideas” are in place.
Now you have a choice: a) re-do the whole design with his ideas in mind
(he will add more, when it’s almost done) for additional price; b) talk
to him and convince him that these are great ideas, but not now, not
this way and not here; c) drop the project and walk away without final
payment (50% usually).
Once I stuck with this guy and spend a few iterations, making mostly “a”
choice but without price increase. Really painful experience.
14. TylerL Says:
April 16th, 2007 at 12:34 am
Pavel: I can’t say I’ve ever come across that type of client, but I have
dealt with some clients that believe they have a designer’s eye. Some
clients may have somewhat of one, but this particular client wasn’t one
of them; needless to say, that was a bad experience and I was happy to
finally finish the project.
15. Pavel Says:
April 16th, 2007 at 3:32 am
You right, “designer’s eye” type is somewhat similar.
16. Adrian Says:
April 16th, 2007 at 4:52 am
Good article.
I put many clients of due to some/all of the above.
Though, i tend to focus on Server Side coding now, the clients seem to
know what they want, and how they wan’t it.
17. JamesK Says:
April 16th, 2007 at 7:50 am
I thought this was common knowledge. Not trying to flame but since most
of you are web designers, you are still pretty much fresh meat to the
internet. Any systems admins, backend engineers and anyone who
specializes in standardization knows these guidelines.
I guess this helps with new people who want to be web designers or have
started doing work freelance.
18. Ian Says:
April 16th, 2007 at 7:52 am
Great article, you’ve got a great writing style too!
19. atarix64 Says:
April 16th, 2007 at 7:53 am
Dude,
You can’t make a deal for designing a site and NOT mention the fact that
you won’t code it this is dishonest.
Thats like buying a car without an engine. Besides any good designer
will know how to at least use a wysiwyg and slice their psd’s, if you
can’t code it yourself.
Not to mention creating large psd’s is oldschool time to get up on the
web2.0 ;) (CSS, XHTML, XML, ETC).
20. 5 Reasons to turn down a client, and then some at screamingclown
Says:
April 16th, 2007 at 8:04 am
[…] Follow this link for more […]
21. Emsi Says:
April 16th, 2007 at 8:12 am
Seriously, doing design WITHOUT coding is, well, doing very little.
Taking a person’s money and giving them a pile of worthless PSD files is
dishonest and idiotic.
22. JF Says:
April 16th, 2007 at 8:13 am
I shall attempt a retort from a “non-designer” and “business owner”
angle….
1. Do not write off bartering. Doing work for free from something highly
untraceable like “exposure” is in fact stupid. Instead, barter for other
services. Chances are, they are selling something too, so let them trade
for whatever they are offering.
2. I realize content and copy are key ingredients for most designers to
work their magic. But here is a hint. Use a contract. Problem solved.
Take some queues from the coders for God’s sake. If I have to explain
what needs to be on this very simple contract, you probably should not
attempt freelancing, mmkay? Read a book on small business management.
3. There is a damn good reason why I want mock-ups. I don’t know you,
and therefore do not trust you, and therefore do not trust that the work
in your portfolio is even your own. You do realize just how easy it is
to steal designs and show them off as your own right? Again, contract.
But do not blame us, the client, for this. Blame large ad agencies and
their kin…they started this. Seriously, how else can I trust you have
even the most remote clue as to what I want, when I do not even know! It
is foolish to think most business owners have the time to sit down with
ten different designers and ask for comps. Granted if that is the
genuine reason for them asking for comps, it is bullshit. But for me,
that is not the case. I want comps to prove your COMPetent and so I can
pick out the design I like the best. And yes, I am willing to pay for
that time.
4. And the truth, shall set you free. Some might argue 50% is steep if
it is a large project. I would prefer contracts to be contingent on
deliverables/due dates for the milestones. I’ll give you 25% down…and X%
when I get my comps, and X% when I get my rough draft, and X% for those
300 changes I have to make, etc. I think that would keep the designers
in check, because all too often you designers take the 50% and take your
sweet damned time with getting the work done. But overall, I agree.
Contracts, contracts, contracts.
5. Can not disagree there. But customer/client expectations should be
spelled out completely in…wait for it….wait for it…..almost there……………a
contract!!!
23. Matthew Says:
April 16th, 2007 at 8:23 am
I have to disagree with you atarix64. If a client wants a design then
that is exactly what they will get. If they had specified that they
wanted a site then the coding would have been outsourced (as stated in
the article).
There are many ways to skin a cat and in this instance slice a design (XHTML/CSS,
TABLES/TABLELESS, ETC) and some of these require a different skillset.
Although, if it were me i would get clarification as to whether or not
coding would be required, just to be on the safe side and for there to
be no misunderstandings.
24. lafata Says:
April 16th, 2007 at 8:33 am
Dudes,
He’s SEVENTEEN. Give him a break. I’ve been designing for 25 years and
doing web sites for 8. Initially I used to do all the coding myself.
Then I was introduced to carpel tunnel and a myriad of other RSIs up and
down my shoulders and spine. I have NO problem outsourcing the coding
and charging for the design, especially for commericial websites. No
offense but not all coders are good visual designers.
25. disciple83 Says:
April 16th, 2007 at 8:35 am
@atarix64:
Not everyone has experience with CSS, XHTML, etc…We are designers, not
programmers. I started in freelance before giving it up to join a
development company so I didn’t have to bear the business burden, I just
draw and create, which was my goal to begin with. The point is, as a
freelance designer, clients merely assume you have all the requirements
they seek to finish a project for as little as possible. That is rarely
the case.
And sometimes you’ll even run into a client looking to jump start a
business into the web community, with zero experience in it beforehand,
who simply don’t know that the design area and coding area are two
separate areas. You may say that any good designer is capable of some
level of programming. I beg to differ, any good designer is a good
designer, not a programmer. Any good programmer worth their beans can
work with any design.
26. wilbus Says:
April 16th, 2007 at 8:36 am
The VERY first thing you need to tell your customers is that you are not
writing a scrap of code and you’re just giving them a picture of what it
would look like. Why do you think so many people come back and assume
you are going to code it? Quite simply, because that is the most
rational assumption.
Why even bother making a PSD? Just draw it out or write it on a bar
napkin if you’re just delivering a picture of the design.
27. Sean Says:
April 16th, 2007 at 8:38 am
I have to admit that I agree with all the points except one. If someone
asks you to design a website, that implies functionality which requires
coding. If someone asks you to design the layout, that is something
different, that implies non-functionality.
I truly hope you are not leading them on. After all, the goal of any
project work is to make the customer happy. That is priority one.
28. A Says:
April 16th, 2007 at 8:42 am
I agree with wilbus. It’s not an outlandish assumption to be making that
they’ll actually get some code - it’s the Internet, not print. It is
worth mentioning up front.
29. DP Says:
April 16th, 2007 at 8:45 am
I completely agree JF above.”
A “conversation log” is clearly not enough to prove any point, since it
only represents *your* point of view. If you don’t want to go all the
way to a formal contract (which I’d recommend), at least put together a
proposal in writing clearly stating the cost, schedule and deliverables
of your work (a.k.a. scope). Get your customer to sign this proposal and
your life and your customer’s will be much happier.
30. N. A. Corbier Says:
April 16th, 2007 at 8:48 am
The idea of handing over an PSD to me is odd. My clients pay for
websites. The PSD is worthless to them without the XHTML/CSS to go along
with it…
But, hey. If you can get people to pay for a PSD, more power to you.
31. Ryan Says:
April 16th, 2007 at 8:55 am
Good article, but instead of waiting for the client to ask you about
coding the site you should discuss this during your discovery phase. If
you don’t have a discovery phase then you probably need to rethink how
you are handling your “business”.
32. burtangle Says:
April 16th, 2007 at 8:56 am
Most people are cheap bastards and only employ “outside help” when they
don’t have the necessary skills. If my toilet plugs up, I can whip out
the plunger and fix it. If a pipe bursts in the basement, I’m calling a
plumber. Most people don’t realize there is actual talent and experience
involved in creating a good design. So before they contact you, they are
probably thinking “I can draw up some purty pictures myself, but I don’t
know how to website-ify them!” So you end up delivering something they
think they could half-arsed themselves AND you don’t give them what they
really wanted.
You mention asking the customer to find the words HTML and CSS in the
conversation log. Does it specifically state in the contract that you
are providing PSD files which are only pictures of a website?
I couldn’t agree more with laughing in the face of people who will “let”
you do their web design in exchange for exposure.
33. terra Says:
April 16th, 2007 at 8:58 am
Tyler, you are wise beyond your years! I started designing at 13 (the
beginning of the dot-com boom), and have yet to meet anyone similar in
that aspect. What you have listed in this post had taken me a few years
to realize… great stuff!
34. Robert Says:
April 16th, 2007 at 8:59 am
Agreed with all the others talking about PSD’s. You’re being dishonest /
baiting and switching if you say “ZOMG, coding, ewwww!” when designing
another person’s website. Like you said, if you’re old enough to write a
contract, you’re old enough to get bitten in the ass by that immature
attitude. What you should do is partner with a service specializing in
what you hate (google: http://www.psd2html.com/order-now.html ) and ask
for a referral fee / discount. That way clients get what they really
want (not a friggin pretty picture) and you get a few extra $$$.
–Robert
35. jo Says:
April 16th, 2007 at 9:06 am
Come on guys… grow up… HTML/XHTML is part of website design… its only
difference is the level. Whether it is SEO friendly HTML codes or just a
piece of crap of HTML codes.
A .PSD File or a .JPG file of the web page cannot be called as a web
page itself therefore its not website design, its only graphics design.
So next time don’t forget to clear things up with your clients before
you start doing anything and got slapped at the end.
Cheers…
36. Streamweaver Says:
April 16th, 2007 at 9:07 am
Overall there are some very good thoughts here, but they’re a bit
sweeping for me in some cases.
The one I’ve had a bevy or problems with is your last, the handing off
of a PSD file, or more accurately the handing to me of a PSD file. This
works well if you come from it with completely open coding, pricing and
time constraints but this has never been the case for me. I’ve always
been brought in to work within an existing web context and they hand me
a PSD file designed by some guy who no knowledge of how the CMS I’m
adapting works, how basic web apps work or what kind of checks they are
writing for the coder based on their image.
In the end this comes off as trying to decouple design from
implementation which has always been a recipe for disaster in my
experience.
37. JamesK Says:
April 16th, 2007 at 9:10 am
Well, people are saying what I wanted to say but feared that I would be
labeled a flamer (lol). Anyhow most companies WANT to see that you can
code and are not just some kid with a WYSIWYG editor. You have to
remember that most companies during the dotcom boom got burned by people
with no coding or web design skills and labeled themselfs as “web
designers”, charging upward of $50 TO $100 a hour “coding” and really
only using some type of GUI editor. Ask these same people to change
files or site issues and if they did not have the editor of choice and
were stuck with note pad or something they were completely stuck and
useless.
It’s the same today to a lesser extent. web designers are a dime a dozen
and all claim to be experts, when in reality most of them took a week
long course on how to use a wiziwig editor and a gui ftp application.
I myself even have a friend who claims to be the internets biggest gift
to web designers everywhere. He took some course, taught himself some
stuff and worked for a small startup doing single page designs. He
always asks me what he is doing wrong and why he cannot get a job doing
this. (he has been looking for over 3 years) I tell him, “get out of the
web design business”
Now there is some really good talent out there if you know where to look
but again most web guys are a dime a dozen and have no “old school”
design skills. Hell most think the internet was created when the web
first hit.
38. Stylenation Says:
April 16th, 2007 at 9:15 am
You said it. Will send this page to my colleagues.
39. TylerL Says:
April 16th, 2007 at 9:16 am
Regarding not coding my own designs: my clients know that I outsource
coding work and I make that clear. The idea behind the point I made in
the article is that you shouldn’t be stuck doing work that wasn’t
discussed. I advertise my services accordingly — I create the image of a
website. I can code (I’m not amazing but I could offer it as a service
if I felt the need), but I prefer to spend my time working on the
graphics side of things. I have some good coders to outsource too.
To anyone who needs a good XHTML/CSS coder, check out http://www.xhtmlthis.com/.
Great coder, great attitude, reasonable pricing and very reliable.
“Like you said, if you’re old enough to write a contract, you’re old
enough to get bitten in the ass by that immature attitude.”
I’m actually not old enough to write a contract, or sign one for that
matter, but I don’t find my attitude towards the matter ‘immature’. I
simply enjoy creating the image, and my clients know that. There is a
market out there for uncoded designs.
40. Dave Says:
April 16th, 2007 at 9:16 am
RE: I thought this was supposed to be coded? I’d like my money back.
This part of your post needs more facts. Did you tell the client, who
responded to your payment request with a request for coding, that you
would not be coding the site prior to starting the project? Do clients
often assume you do coding? Do other “freelance designers” do coding?
RE: I’m not sure what I want, and I won’t pay if I don’t like it.
For a potential client that is unsure of what they want, this is an
opportunity to make a rough draft of a design and submit it for
approval. Instead of turning away business you can set incremental
points where you get paid or the client abandons the project and does
not pay for the most recent increment.
Your post was a good starting point for designers. I recommend hiring an
attorney at the outset of your venture to draft an agreement or look
over a possible agreement. Then incrementally consult this attorney to
make sure you are still using the best practices.
41. Petes Blog » Blog Archive » Five GOOD Reasons to turn down a
potential client Says:
April 16th, 2007 at 9:19 am
[…] Five Reasons to turn down a potential client […]
42. ryan Says:
April 16th, 2007 at 9:22 am
Great points. Coming at it from a different perspective (myself and the
firm I cofounded do the coding while outsourcing the design), I can say
that we’ve run into many of these issues.
Probably the best advice I can add is to always have a very clear
statement of work that the client signs off on. Narrow it down as
closely as you can. It can be a pain in the neck to spend a couple
unbillable hours putting together this SOW, but think of it as an
insurance policy for disagreements later.
43. Dude Man Walking » Blog Archive » Five reasons to turn down a
potential client Says:
April 16th, 2007 at 9:24 am
[…] I can think of ten reasons but this is a good start.read more | digg
[…]
44. The Source Computing Blog » Five reasons to turn down a potential
client Says:
April 16th, 2007 at 9:24 am
[…] ’s some situations I suggest I’ve been faced with that I suggest you
try to avoid.read more | digg […]
45. TylerL Says:
April 16th, 2007 at 9:28 am
“Why even bother making a PSD? Just draw it out or write it on a bar
napkin if you’re just delivering a picture of the design.”
Sometimes there’s more to the graphic portion of a site than a basic
hand drawn layout. I guess I would call myself a graphic designer as
opposed to a web designer, although I usually refer to myself as a
designer, someone who designs and codes as a developer, and someone who
works with the back-end a coder, although that’s just my personal word
choice.
46. Davis Says:
April 16th, 2007 at 9:29 am
I ahve to say that avoiding mentioning coding in client meetings is
underhanded. Since most clients won’t know there is a difference between
a web designer and a coder it is your responsibility to inform them. You
are acting as an agent for the client and when you deny them information
you are acting unethically. This is very unprofessional and it puts you
in a worse light than these clients you are bad-mouthing here. Learn to
act professionally.
47. bafh Says:
April 16th, 2007 at 9:30 am
As I have told many people before (from years in Public Accounting), not
getting paid for work performed is a sales problem, not a collection
problem. Too many people think getting the “SALE” is all that matters.
We’ll worry about collection later. The majority of clients I have had
in the past would make more money and have higher profit margins if they
cut loose between 1/3 to 1/2 of your customers. Only keep the best.
Don’t do business with people that have no respect for what you do. And
never, NEVER!!! do any work for ANYBODY without and engagement contract
that spells out exactly what you will do and what they expect you to do.
48. Vertinox Says:
April 16th, 2007 at 9:31 am
Web design without coding is not web design. Learn PHP, SQL, CSS, and
maybe Java and you can call that web design.
49. TylerL Says:
April 16th, 2007 at 9:35 am
Vertinox: Design refers to the plans or outline of a work to be
executed. Therefore, web design without coding is web design. As is
coding without design.
50. Pete White Says:
April 16th, 2007 at 9:42 am
Interesting stuff, I get the first one a lot with people trying to get
free websites for some back links and free exposure.
51. Berto Says:
April 16th, 2007 at 9:47 am
I thought I was going to get some code with this post ;-)
Just kidding, great article!
52. FiZ Says:
April 16th, 2007 at 9:49 am
Once again, the coders are right here. The other points were all quite
valid, but it’s not web design without code. As much as I hate to say
it, in the web design field, there is no such thing as a pure “designer”
unless you’re part of a company’s web design/development team. Even if
you don’t build the site yourself, you at least need to build a template
for coders to work the design into.
If you’re doing nothing but the visual design, you need to tell them
upfront that there is no code involved in your work. However, expect to
get a lot of rejections or at least lowered bids.
53. had3z Says:
April 16th, 2007 at 9:50 am
you forgot the “do all the fancy features so i can pick the ones i like”
type of client
the fifth reason looks kindof thin. a project should have all the big
stuff outlined before working. to change a picture or a light blue with
a dark blue is ok, but things like coding should be the first things to
discuss
54. FiZ Says:
April 16th, 2007 at 9:55 am
As a side note, please don’t try to debate the meaning of the word
“design”. The industry doesn’t care if design is still design if it
doesn’t have code.
The reality of the matter is this: look up graphic design or web design
jobs on Monster and you’ll find the overwhelming majority of both expect
you to know at the very least HTML, CSS, JavaScript most likely, and
some form of scripting language such as PHP or the .NET framework.
You’ll be lucky if the graphic design jobs don’t also expect you to do
print graphic work as well (brochures, advertisements, etc) and maybe
even write copy/presentation material.
Design from the creative aspect alone is admirable, but realistically,
don’t expect to get paid as well for it.
55. burtangle Says:
April 16th, 2007 at 9:58 am
“the fifth reason looks kindof thin. a project should have all the big
stuff outlined before working. to change a picture or a light blue with
a dark blue is ok, but things like coding should be the first things to
discuss”
People don’t see any reason to discuss something as obvious as coding
though. To steal a comparison from the Digg board, that’s like going to
the mechanic. He writes down the instructions and draws a picture of how
to fix your car but refers you to someone else to take care of the nuts
and bolts.
56. chad Says:
April 16th, 2007 at 10:02 am
HTML isn’t code. It’s markup. If you can’t turn a PSD into HTML/CSS, you
need to learn a few things before getting paid for it.
57. FiZ Says:
April 16th, 2007 at 10:04 am
“People don’t see any reason to discuss something as obvious as coding
though.”
Again, look at the industry idea of what a Graphic Designer is on job
boards. It’s not as obvious as you think. So while doing the graphics
alone is all fine and dandy, most clients/employers aren’t educated in
our field enough to know the difference between a design for a web site
and “web design”.
58. Terinea Tech Tips Says:
April 16th, 2007 at 10:11 am
I’m going to recommend you to other business, can you over charge them
so you can undercharge me?
I think not!
59. Matt Says:
April 16th, 2007 at 10:19 am
Wouldn’t it be easier to just make sure and discuss the topic of coding
with the client rather than to keep a huge text file of every
conversation you’ve had with them just to send it back with a smart-alic
comment about doing a search “CSS”.
Plus, this also helps you to set expectations with the client so you are
less likely to disappoint them.
Other than that, I definitely agree with your comments.
60. pizpot Says:
April 16th, 2007 at 10:19 am
It is designers like you, who make coders people’s lifes hell later when
they want things done right. Puke barf barf. I bet you need .NET to see
your pages right. Laaammmaaa
61. gb Says:
April 16th, 2007 at 10:58 am
I don’t see what the fuss is about - this guy has made a business
decision that his time is more valuable doing good page design and
outsourcing the markup and the coding. If he can build a niche doing
that he’ll be happy doing what he loves to do and making money at it
while the rest of you are still arguing over the definition of web
design.
If you read through his post, comments, and his own website it seems
pretty clear to me that he’s NOT leaving his clients totally out on a
lurch with a simple PSD when they were expecting a working website. So
what’s the big deal? I know a lot of really good designers who are also
capable of markup who let someone else in the production cycle do that
because their time is more valuable designing.
@JF - it wasn’t on this list, but another type of client is the guy who
uses contracts to define every last detail so that in the end they can
try to weasel out of them - i’m not against contracts, but a guy who
wants everything defined in a contract and *then* wants *free* mockups
because they don’t *trust* that the work in my portfolio is actually my
own work sends up all sorts of red flags…
@Vertinox - knowledge of languages like php, java, and even css makes
you no more of a *designer* than someone who uses The Google on The
Internets
62. steve Says:
April 16th, 2007 at 10:59 am
Actually, I think you do look like a Jedi
63. burtangle Says:
April 16th, 2007 at 11:12 am
@gb - The issue isn’t that some people want to focus solely on graphical
design and leave the coding to others. The issue is that in a list of
only FIVE crucial reasons to turn down a client is listing something
that most clients and designers would expect you to do! That’s like
contracting a construction company to build your house. They drop off
the raw materials and give you the business card of someone that can put
it together.
Graphical design and coding are both “arts” to a degree. So knowing how
to google and search php.net aren’t going to give you the ability to
write good code.
64. Duncan Says:
April 16th, 2007 at 11:16 am
Nice article, very informative thank you….
i do reckon you’d look more of a jedi if you bought yourself a cloak.
65. Martin Muehl Says:
April 16th, 2007 at 11:20 am
#1,2,3: Been there, done that!
66. gb Says:
April 16th, 2007 at 11:24 am
@burtangle - I think he could’ve chosen a better example, but ultimately
his 5th issues is being misinterpreted - it’s NOT about coding/markup at
all, it’s about clients, who go into a project aware of everything and
then choose to become unaware of some aspects of the project, hoping to
get something they weren’t actually paying for in the first place.
and you completely missed my joke on coding - it wasn’t a jab at coding
at all - I whole-heartedly agree that excellent code and backend
development is indeed an art form in and of itself - my point is simply
that being an excellent coder does not make you a good visual designer,
or vice versa.
67. winnie Says:
April 16th, 2007 at 11:26 am
Great article :D
Not to mention you’re totally hot.
68. TylerL Says:
April 16th, 2007 at 11:38 am
@Winnie:
Thanks haha.
69. BradM Says:
April 16th, 2007 at 11:44 am
Sorry, but if you’re just doing up pretty pictures in Photoshop then
you’re just a graphic designer. If you can’t be bothered to knock out
the most basic of HTML or CSS you’re useless as a “web designer”. HTML
is _not_ programming and nobody is asking you to write a program in C++
or Java. There are competent web designers who can do the whole project
without having to subcontract every item to someone else. If you’re
going to go that route you should be a project manager, not a designer.
70. Aaron B Says:
April 16th, 2007 at 11:45 am
From psd to xhtml..
www.xhtmlized.com
71. JF Says:
April 16th, 2007 at 11:54 am
@gb: That entry was written with tongue in cheek. I am willing to pay
for the time to do mock-ups. However if I do not know you, I want to see
more then a portfolio that I can no more trust then your word. This is
where the contract comes into play. I have expectations, you have
expectations. Lay those our in clear wording. If either fail to meet
them, move on. If you want X dollars to do some mock ups, put it in the
contract.
But I disagree with just giving you 50% based purely on the trust that
your portfolio is solid. Your portfolio says jack shit about how well
you meet deadlines, follow through on requests, yada yada yada. With the
contract and deliverable dates, and expectations of cost, it does away
with all of these worries and concerns for both parties.
It does not have to be drilled down to the finest details. You quote
time, I agree on time, you agree to deliver items in X time, I pay you
in X time. Simple.
72. burtangle Says:
April 16th, 2007 at 12:01 pm
@gb - Obviously his clients weren’t aware of everything. Otherwise they
wouldn’t have complained when they were handed a PSD file instead of
what they expected.
73. Dave Says:
April 16th, 2007 at 12:04 pm
A real designer in a real development house works under contract… and
one of a couple comps gets handed over to a development team to do the
real work.
74. Chon Says:
April 16th, 2007 at 12:16 pm
I suppose if chatlogs and Paypal are big concerns for a designer, this
is great advice to get an extra 40 bucks to buy xSceneGirlx that corsage
for prom. Age jabs aside, what you’ve outlined here are common pitfalls
for those entering the design world with substandard or no education of
the field. Any program worth its salt will require at least a business
and contract law class. It’s cool that you’re thinking of the business
side of things at 17, but you can’t write off errors in your advice just
because of your age. There are 20, 30, and 40 year olds reading your
blog and being mislead by inexperience.
In the real world, you have an attorney write contracts and don’t rely
on chatlogs for any sort of legal standing. Being stiffed 80 bucks for a
PSD is nothing compared to being stiffed several thousand dollars by a
Fortune 500. Instead of missing out on a couple Wii games, your house
goes into foreclosure.
I think the fact that there is ANY confusion at the handoff stage means
you are absolutely not being clear enough at the start. Handing off a
PSD is not “web design”, and is misleading at best. Anyone can mock up a
site with glossy 2.0 buttons and gradients and call themselves a web
designer.
75. Magzilla Says:
April 16th, 2007 at 12:22 pm
During my five years as a contract programmer/ consultant and the past
year as project manager for a large web development firm, I have never
considered “web design” to include “coding.” It should be common
knowledge that graphic web design and slicing/coding are two very
different arts. Nevertheless, a contract outlining specific deliverables
is always a good idea.
76. laine Says:
April 16th, 2007 at 12:26 pm
You are the hottest tech guy I’ve ever seen.
77. Meneer R Says:
April 16th, 2007 at 12:27 pm
Lol. I always do it the other way around.
I make it very clear I AM NOT A DESIGNER.
I will create the back-end administration, the front-end, the
style-sheets, etc.
But they just either provide me with graphics and specific color sets,
_or_ hire some one else to do that.
The idea that you can even make a site based on an photoshop is so
nighties though. You can’t. PERIOD.
Why?
- interaction/animation of elements is part of design. so what color do
we see on a mouse-over?
- it should quickly load. Not all photohops can be turned into efficient
loading sites.
- the content should be update-able/dynamic through a back-end, stuff
like fonts has to be dealt with using CSS. You can’t give me a picture
and say ‘hey, guess what font i’m using’.
- turning a picture into a site takes longer than actually creating the
picture.
- you need to take into account specific technical limitations of html.
not all layouts are POSSIBLE without sacrifycing compatibility with
different browsers, screen resolutions, etc.
- how do we deal with dynamic pages? Screenshots do not work. I need the
full background image, not just the parts of the background that are
visible in some randomly rendered screenshot.
- what about which elements are scrollable, what about dropdown menus?
This is why I work the other way around.
I design the user-interface, I write the code.
The designer SKINS it. He updates the CSS, he updates the images to his
liking (i start of with stock bsd-liscenced icons). He does not touch
the code though. (the actual code that _generates_ the html)
If a site really is static and does not require all this, and is very
focused on design, I recommend they look for a flash designer and skip
the server-side dynamically generated code completely.
The idea of a photoshopping a site is so ridiculous its almost funny.
Like designer a car on a paper and then handing it over. There you go,
now its your turn to figure out to fit an engine in there.
THE TECHNICAL SIDE ALWAYS LIMITS THE POSSIBILITIES OF THE DESIGN.
So you can’t design without designing the implementation. If you want to
do it sequentially, start coding, then SKIN it. Not the other way
around.
78. Joblakhan Says:
April 16th, 2007 at 12:42 pm
man…i really wish i read this stuff when i first started out doing
freelance. could have saved me A LOT of grief. i admit, i was
waaaaaaaaay too innocent when i started out. good post!
79. anony mous Says:
April 16th, 2007 at 1:06 pm
Meneer R is correct.
80. 5 Reasons To Say “No” To A Client Says:
April 16th, 2007 at 1:38 pm
[…] found this article via Designers Mind. I really like the point about
charging a fee upfront, say 30%-50% up-front so the client […]
81. Phill Kenoyer Says:
April 16th, 2007 at 1:48 pm
I will allow payments over time, but I charge interest. If I’m going to
be the bank, then I’m going to use the bankers handbook. I charge 6%
interest on any payment plans.
82. Jayson Barclay Says:
April 16th, 2007 at 2:13 pm
These are good pointers. It can be tough to negotiate up front fees when
you really need the work. Customers can sure be deadbeats! Also you do
look like a jedi.
83. Sam Says:
April 16th, 2007 at 2:49 pm
It’s highly unlikely that anyone who doesn’t know much about websites
would distinguish between “designing a website” and “making a website.”
I think your sales tactics are misleading.
Can you let me know who your clients are so I can pick up some of them?
I’m sure they don’t have any loyalty to you.
84. RICK! Says:
April 16th, 2007 at 2:53 pm
When in doubt about contract GAG (Graphic Arts Guild) Pricing Book has
sample contracts that spell out a lot of the points covered. Also it’s
great for estimating out-sourced work as it has national hourly averages
for different artist.
As for the “I have a few other designers in mind, can you create a few
mock-ups and maybe I’ll pick you?” That in the industry is call “Work on
Spec”. A lot of big corporations will do that, especially fashion
industry. Urban Outfitters is notorious for turning down an agency’s
shirt submission only to have it show up on the racks 3 years later when
they think no one will know.
Also be clear to clients about copyright and final artwork ownership.
YOUR CLIENT IS NOT ENTITLED TO THE ORIGINAL INDESIGN OR ILLUSTRATOR
DOCUMENT. Don’t take that “we just want backup copy” or “we just want to
put it in our word docs templates”. They will reprint your artwork
without notification and there goes your 15% printer fee. Or they will
take changes to some hack at Kinko’s because they think saving money
will help. This is referred as “Work for hire”. If the client wants to
do a ‘buyout’ be sure that price is spelled out on their contract.
Average cost of a buyout is anywhere between 50% to 100% of the original
design cost.
85. TylerL Says:
April 16th, 2007 at 4:49 pm
@Meneer R
“The idea that you can even make a site based on an photoshop is so
nighties though. You can’t. PERIOD.”
Yes, you can, providing that the designer has knowledge in coding and
the coder is competant. I never provide anyone with a screenshot, I
provide them with a layered .PSD and the fonts I used. I must have been
really misleading in my post, everyone seems to think my business tactic
is to get out of coding by any means possible. My clients know that they
aren’t receiving a coded file, it’s made VERY clear.
Some clients, however, upon completion of the project, tell me that
coding was part of the deal, when it was never agreed upon.
“The idea of a photoshopping a site is so ridiculous its almost funny.
Like designer a car on a paper and then handing it over. There you go,
now its your turn to figure out to fit an engine in there.”
Therein lies my job: the design must be easy for the coder to decipher
and use. I’m sorry, but I really doubt GM has one guy who handles
everything from concept drawings all the way to distribution. Certain
people work on the concept drawings, then hand it off to the next step
in the chain. That’s how things work. Multiple people specializing in
certain aspects of a products design ensures better quality in my mind.
86. kyle Says:
April 16th, 2007 at 6:48 pm
50% of free is half of nothing
87. kyle Says:
April 16th, 2007 at 6:55 pm
Meneer R, you are cracking me up. You build the site first then have the
designer skin it? No wonder you think that design is limited to the
technology used. This is just plain ridiculous. Is jacob nielsen your
biz partner?
88. kyle Says:
April 16th, 2007 at 7:01 pm
“That’s like contracting a construction company to build your house.
They drop off the raw materials and give you the business card of
someone that can put it together.”
would you want an architect with no building experience building your
house or a contractor who does this stuff for a living?
89. CBG Says:
April 16th, 2007 at 8:40 pm
Wow, a lot of people here confusing “Web DESIGN” and “Web DEVELOPMENT”.
Design does not constitute developing a website. Design should never
inherently involve any programming or coding.
90. pristina.org | everything design » links for 2007-04-17 Says:
April 16th, 2007 at 9:44 pm
[…] DesignersMind » Blog Archive » Five reasons to turn down a potential
client (tags: business freelance design tips webdesign clients work) […]
91. Davis Says:
April 16th, 2007 at 9:52 pm
Tyler, it sounds to me like you are using the title of web designer to
get a job you might not get otherwise or more pay than you would would
get than if you advertised your work as “graphic design”. There are
obviously destinctions that you are drawing between the two jobs that
you are well-aware the general public does not make but you continue to
use the title anyhow and you complain when a customer expects something
that seems resonable given the knowledge of a bystandard.
The person is obviously incapapble of creating their won website and
more-than-likely (based from that fact) would not know that your
definition of web design is any different than theirs.
The spirit in which your original article is written amkes you seem
deceiving and it seems as if you are using a fraudulent job title as you
are not capapble of actually doing complete web design.
92. Davis Says:
April 16th, 2007 at 9:57 pm
For distinction, a concept car designer does not call himself an
engineer, assembler, parts stamper, etc. and has no right to; only to
claim he designs the concept of the car. A graphic designer is
responsible for creating all of the graphic work in a piece (fonts,
colors composition) and a web designer is responsible for creating a web
site, both aesthetically and functionally. Just because all three of
these use the word designer in the title doesn’t mean they all have the
same level of duty.
You are subject to make the work you are capable of doing clear, not
just to avoid bringing it up so you can say “Hey, coding was never
mentioned. Pay me.”
93. Wow Says:
April 16th, 2007 at 10:01 pm
Some of you kids must be 12 years old or mentally challenged. Can you
not read?
a Web DESIGNER is not someone who CREATES A FULL WEBPAGE. A web designer
is someone who DESIGNS a webpage. Meaning, they create the layout. Also,
once again, since you can’t read; he said he makes it VERY CLEAR to the
client that they are not going to recieve it coded. 75% of the people
that posted here don’t even have the education of an elementry school
student from the looks of it. Go back to school.
94. Davis Says:
April 16th, 2007 at 10:10 pm
Where do you glean your definition of web designer? So maybe an
architect is never expected to build the house himself (although he
hires the builder himself and includes the cost in the bid, and sees the
consrtuctuion through as a supervisor to completion) but ask someone
what an architect is and they will say “they design buildings”; it is
pretty common knowledge. The term lacks much ambiguity. Find me a solid
and corroborated definition of what a web deisgner is, find me a lack of
professional ambiguity, and I will agree with you. However, I have to
say that since there lacks a common knowledge definiton of what a web
designer is and since the poster is clearly creating his own definiton
to fit what he is capable of that the services rendered should be in a
paper contract, not snaked into place by not being mentioned.
“Hey architect, you didn’t add the stairs!”
“Not all architects design stairs, you have to hire someone else”
“But you’re the architect?!”
“We never once discussed stairs, check my logs.”
95. Marius Staicu’s Blog » Blog Archive » links for 2007-04-17 Says:
April 16th, 2007 at 10:29 pm
[…] DesignersMind » Blog Archive » Five reasons to turn down a potential
client (tags: tips freelance webdesign clients business advice work) […]
96. and the wind blows. Says:
April 16th, 2007 at 10:57 pm
[…] how to win rock paper scissors mailplane + gmail = all you need
desktop email five reasons to turn down a client why the “ugly girl” is
hot when you’re drunk pictures of geek culture […]
97. TylerL Says:
April 17th, 2007 at 12:01 am
I’d like everyone please to refer to CBG’s comment:
“Wow, a lot of people here confusing “Web DESIGN” and “Web DEVELOPMENT”.
Design does not constitute developing a website. Design should never
inherently involve any programming or coding.”
Take a second to think about the meaning of both the words “design” and
“development”.
98. zenofeller Says:
April 17th, 2007 at 3:35 am
this “article” is a pinnacle of idiocy. let’s throw together some
meaningless banter, some painfully obvious observations and douse
everything in “use your own brain”. then wish people a happy easter egg
insertion and wham, digg material.
not only it says nothing useful, or meaningful about design, after
reading it i have serious doubts the author managed his way through
highschool (equivalency, right ?)
99. LOL Says:
April 17th, 2007 at 4:23 am
“WOW”……….
100. Phasefire Says:
April 17th, 2007 at 5:13 am
Good read.
The random pic of you and a jedi where great.
Ignore the chumps comments about how you don’t code. I’m a coder and
given a design it’s bloody easy to slap a page together.
101. LOL Says:
April 17th, 2007 at 5:24 am
My recent post is not showing up ???? How come lol…
Anyways…. this reply is for “WOW” whoever you are lol..
Designing website layout is just a part of a Website Designer’s JOB… is
there a job title of Website Layout Designer??? lol…
Website designing comprises of Graphics/Images, HTML and/or CSS. If you
call yourself a website designer that just designs a website layout…
then you are very incompetent on your field and you should be the first
one who needs to go back to school.
Well if your lazy enough not to go back to school … then just visit
Wikipedia.ORG, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Website_design lol.
Don’t tell me you’ll be lazy reading too.
Googluck WOW…
102. links for 2007-04-17 — minizen — diseño web Says:
April 17th, 2007 at 5:25 am
[…] 5 razones por las que no aceptar a un cliente potencial (tags:
business freelance clients work minizen) […]
|
